Racism

[Stitch]

I'm starting this tread based on a conversation in Euro 2016 thread (it would be cool if those posts could be transfered here). I wanted to clarify myself and express my opinions, but obviously Euro thread is not meant for it.

I was accused of being a racist because I jokingly addresed German/French/Portugal team as Turks/Nigerians/Brazilians.

First of all, people need to learn what racism is. The things I said, COULD BE interpreted as xenophobic (even that is farfetched since I, personally, have nothing to do with either of those countries), but, after all it was a joke, and it has nothing to do with races. Obviously, any sane being with more than two brain cells will condemn retards who throw bananas or yell monkey noises. Please do not align me with these in any way.

Secondly, people in general need to relax. I understand its a sensitive issue, but whats making it even worse is people finding an excuse to attack and brand someone a racist at every possible opportunity. You know what it leads to (and realizing this is what got me into starting this thread)? It leads to even more division among people.

How? Well after I got accused of being racist for saying the most benign thing, I realized that I'd really have to be careful what I say in front of people of different races, so much that I could never really relax, I'd always be on my toes trying not to insult anyone. Eventually I'd realize its easier to just hang out with people of your own race - and that is exactly what racists want.

I imagine many of you guys know more about this than me, since racism isnt really an issue in Bosnia, because we're all the same race. But we do have pretty similar "problem" with religions - islam, and both roman catholic and eastern orthodox christianity are major religions here. I have friends who practice each of them, and we all sometimes joke about it. Some jokes, if you would hear it as an outsider, are really offensive (like, using the "n" word when "translated" to racism, even worse), but no one gets mad or insulted, we just laugh it off or get back at the person who said something like that with a similar insult.

I'm sorry I've made the thread's first post so personal, I just dont want to be branded for something I'm not.

Lets discuss about the ways to fight racism and any other discrimination in football.

[nefremo]

I just think part of the issue is that it is a sensitive subject for many, so every time someone makes a comment about race, it will more often than not spark a heated debate.

I know that you were joking and I know exactly what kind of joke it is. I was born in Macedonia and lived there for 15 years, so I have heard first hand, seen first hand and can imagine comments that people make in Macedonia....while not meaning anything really offensive or bad by it. However, I have also spend the last 16 years in the USA where race is a heated subject (still), and I see first hand how things can get our of control.

The problem with what you said is that there is a huge group of people in the world that maybe "originated" in one part of the world, however that was generations and generations ago. So today, they have no choice (neither do they want to) but to identify themselves as American, British, French, German, etc. So to go and call for the US National team for example Mexican because they may have many players from Mexican origin in there...like it or not...will be taken as offense. Most of those players have never even been to Mexico for example. In France's case, a lot of their players may not even speak another language other than French. So to call them "Nigeria" solely because of their skin tone will be offensive and will be taken as pretty racially motivated comment. It's just the simple reality. They simply have no other place to go to, or to associate themselves with. They simply ARE French, and they can't NOT be French because they are black.

Imagine that you were born in Nigeria, and your father was born in Nigeria and maybe even HIS father was born in Nigeria....but you are all white because you are European descendants and ended up there for whatever reason. And here comes someone calling you "German" because you are white.....when in all honesty you may be more Nigerian than them. Of course you not take it so lightly.

Now, on the sensitivity issue which you mentioned in the other thread. I absolutely agree. People tend to be too sensitive and even take simple comments as offensive and what not. I am with you on that. But certain things can really rub certain people the wrong way and some of these things are a real problem in the world and are dividing the world needlessly.

You mentioned the jokes in Bosnia between friends....but that's just it. Between friends. We all have friends to whom we can say anything we want. But we also all know that we can's say a lot of that stuff to others.

You brought up a big sensitive issue with Mihajlovic and why you can never support him. There are some things about the war in Bosnia that you can never just turn a blind eye to and if someone makes jokes about it, I bet you'd be pretty pissed off. This may not be the same in context and in severity obviously, but it's clearly a sensitive issue to others.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm all for jokes and I am even too naive when it comes to these things. Sometimes I'm way too extreme on the other side and I fail to identify most things with racism. I'm always like "ahh, people are making a big deal about it" etc. But if I put myself in someone else's shoes (like Dev who said he has faced some issues because of the color of his skin in England, even though he is a English as anyone else there), I can see where the problem is and I can completely understand why it is a sensitive issue for many people around the world.

I know this whole thing started as a joke from you....joke that obviously like I said many people will not find to be funny at all. But to move on to your last sentence as to "how to fight racism in football" and in general.....I think ironically, what you meant as a joke...a lot of people mean it seriously. For example, the Balotelli situation. The guy has been in Italy his whole life. He's never been to Ghana (or maybe he has at this point, I'm not sure but that's besides the point), he's been grown up the Italian way in Italian schools with the Italian mentality, by Italian parents and an Italian family. Everything he does is Italian. Yet people fail to accept him as Italian because he happens to be black....and Italian people "aren't supposed" to be black. It's a ridiculous claim in 2016 when the world is such a mixed pot. Yes, obviously, Italians are traditionally not black....but the world is changing and with all the immigration happening......we will see a lot more Balotelli's in the coming years. So the quicker people get used to that the better off everyone will be.

[ACMILAN1983]

Stitch, I want to confirm I don't think you're racist and discriminate against people based on skin colour or ethnicity. I think nefremo has put very eloquently the reasons why your joke would have been a sensitive issue, which hopefully you can understand and respect. Honestly, for me the discussion on that ends there, I don't think this needs to drag out any further.

On racism in football, honestly I think it's much bigger than that, as in this respect the sport simply compounds the issues in society on the whole. You can bring in all sorts of rules, but ultimately nothing will really improve unless people are educated on the matter.

There are some things I think that can be done to help improve the situation though. For example players need to show greater solidarity on the pitch. If a black player is subject to monkey chants, there's often little reaction from anyone. Usually, if anyone reacts at all, it's the victim. That's just what the fans who do it want, so that reaction isn't beneficial. If others stepped up in support, not just the player's teammates but also the opposition, it shows that this sort of thing isn't acceptable.

There's also a need to try and remove some of the tribalism in football as well. While it's good and well to see teams compete with fans who support them with passion, a lot of times things like monkey chants are usually aimed at a way to "attack and distract" individuals on the pitch. Often, I think this is less about racism and more about trying to do anything for your team. However, I think again it's important to educate how this is wrong or going too far. It's not just racism here, as Gattuso has said the discrimination varies on the player (e.g. players from certain regions subject to atacks).

I think in this regard fans have to change attitude somewhat by offering what might be considered positive support rather than negative support. For example,  I'd consider Liverpool fans singing "You'll never walk alone" or the Icelandic clap chant from the Euros are excellent examples of positive support, where fans try to spur on their team. Monkey chants, disciminating against individuals are essentially extreme examples of negative support, as the aim is to attack the opposition. It's not about removing all attempts to distract opponents etc, but there's limits that can't be crossed.

I think in many ways England is a good example to follow. All the comments about lack of passion etc among English fans, the country has managed to change significantly from being one where hooliganism was a massive issue to now football being something that's seen as a family event. It's a change that's been really positive, as not only do the youth get involved from a young age, but the environment is positive. It's not perfect by any means, the idiots attending the Euros showed that, but from where it was back in the 80s and early 90s, football's moved on a very long way.

[GeoTav]

Stitch, I may have overreacted after your other post and apologize for that.
The post written by Nefremo is near to be perfect.

Actually, I reacted this way because these kinds of comments are now seriously used day in day out by the nationalists/extremists in France. Making a joke about that here is difficult, except with friends of course, but you can no more make jokes about the origins (I won't use the word "race", we're all human beings, period) or religions.

The society is more and more divided in communauties, that's what both nationalists/extremists and terrorists want, and that works, unfortunately.

Even medias play this game, in the sad event of yesterday in Nice, the first informations the medias gave were the place where the attack happened, the temporary number of victims and then ... suddenly, the fact that the crazy guy was a "French from Tunisia".

[Stitch]

The society is more and more divided in communauties, that's what both nationalists/extremists and terrorists want, and that works, unfortunately.

This is the saddest part of the fight against racism. Instead of uniting people, it actually divides them, because people are "trigger happy" to call someone racist/nationalist or whatever.

However, whether we admit it or not, hard-core football fans are not the most intelligent kind of people. Im pretty sure racist chants on games are not screamed by well educated, regular football fans who come to stadiums to enjoy the sport they like to watch. By observing ultras on the Balkans, its easy to see what most of them have in common - they're usually failing in life, whether its school, low end job, their families... Most of them are putting the club they support as the most important thing in their lives, which I find fascinating, and idiotic at the same time. They will go to all games, home and away, they will go watch all the friendlies they can, all training sessions, at the same time neglecting their other life obligations, like job or family.

As Dev said, those fans think that by chanting racist stuff they tilt the opposing player, and therefore "helping" their team. Theyre willing to go that low just to see their team win, not realizing or caring how much collateral damage they do at the same time.

One of the things UEFA may try after those chants are heard is stopping the game until the stewards empty part of the stadium from where the chants were heard. I also like the idea of the players themselves stopping the game and refusing to play, either for the day, or until the stadium is emptied.

Thanks all for replying.