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+--- Thread: Allegri's system (/showthread.php?tid=289)
RE: Allegri's system next season - xudong - 07-30-2013
You are right. I am already screaming "NO BOATENG."
Truth is, this guy isn't happy, is always off-form, and seems never to be the mood. What's worse, he isn't that creative as you claim, he can't keep the ball to his feet, he can't dribble, he is clueless in a limited space. He is absolutely a disaster as a true #10.
That said, he is strong, he is unpredictable, he is explosive, and given space he can do some great damage by either picking out a delicious pass or by sending a missile towards the goal.
To sum up,
1. I won't be too upset if we sell him for profit. I wouldn't miss anyone who doesn't love Milan with all their hearts.
2. If he stays, he should work on his attitude, he should play in the midfield.
3. He can still be really good, if well used. His unpreditability and explosiveness are his best weapons.
4. Though not a major concern, this guy should just give up his #10 shirt. It does not look good on him.
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 07-30-2013
I'm glad Danny bumped this thread today, as I wanted to mention Capello's recent comments in this article:
http://www.goal.com/en/news/12/spain/2013/07/29/4151779/capello-spain-have-been-found-out?ICID=OP
For me, he sums up almost perfectly what is important in terms on systems or tactics by saying that discussing 4-4-2, 4-3-3 etc is absurd, as it's not what the modern game is about (truth is, this is nothing new). That is why when I originally posted about my wishes, it was much more a focus on ideas and style of play rather than a specific numbers.
I also think the general comments he made are fantastic, encapsulating so much in so few words.
(07-30-2013, 03:54 PM)Danny Wrote: I promised I would reply to this. It took me a LONG time but I got around to it! Man of my word
I saw a tweet on Twitter and I must admit I salivated slightly at the prospect of the suggested formation and personnel. It went on the assumption that everyone is on form and giving their best, as opposed to one of those patchy periods. It harks back to Carlo's Xmas tree formation and tbh we WERE very successful with that. Particularly in Europe.
-------------------Abbiati
De Sciglio-----Zapata----Mexes---------Constant
------Poli---------De Jong--------Montolivo
------------------Boateng
-----------Balotelli-------El-Sha
I can already hear people screaming 'NOT BOATENG'. Truth is when the guy is happy, on-form and in the mood he is absolutely dynamite. He can pick out a pass, he's creative, he's strong and he can change entire games. In the treq role he can free-float to the wings as he wishes, and it appears frankly that Niang isn't a full part of our plans this season such are the links mooting a move away suggesting a front 3 isn't happening. So Boateng, if he can get his form/head right is quite capable of the the treq role. That said, he and Poli can also alternate between themselves - one can be deeper while the other creates, and vice versa.
Then you also have the superb Monto and De Jong more centrally and defensive.
Up top an on-form El-Sha is worth every dime of £30M and we all know Balo is sensational.
Defence - well I do like Abate but he is often not the most intelligent of players and is rather weak at the back at times, while DS is probably the other way around and has a lot of potential. And I just plain like Constant if he could stop exploding at things he doesn't like.
Thoughts?
As above, I'm glad you did stick to your words, not just because I felt this place was apt for the Capello comments, but because I always am keen to see different opinions.
About your thoughts, I generally agree with the backline and the midfield. In defence, I'd consider Abate, especially if we were to get Honda who I can see playing on the right cutting in. Not to say De Sciglio shouldn't play, but all 3 (with Constant being the 3rd) would fight for 2 spots.
In midfield, I agree Poli is definitely a good choice atm. I know people have doubts about him, but I think we have the same opinion that he can do well in Milan.
In attack, I have the biggest doubts. El Shaarawy, as I've mentioned before and most recently in the player thread, I think needs a deeper role. I fear his focus on wanting goals is what's blocking him atm, although this is a major change and would require a change of shape in the side.
As for Boateng, I have serious doubts about him and his commitment if I'm honest. I had previously thought he could do the role you defined, to the point I agree about him floating into wide areas, but I see him struggling to fit into the system. I had hoped he'd become like a Ruud Gullit type figure for us a few years ago, maybe not as a good but similar in qualities and personality, but right now that seems highly unlikely.
RE: Allegri's system next season - Danny - 07-30-2013
tbh I am glad the most controversial thing on our pitch is Kevin-Prince Boateng. You know things are actually ok overall if he is our biggest problem. I don't count Robinho because I doubt he will get a huge amount of playing time. He'll be on the bench a LOT.
Anyway, what I find curious about Xu's comment re: Prince is he says on one hand that he isn't that creative, but on the other hand he can pick out a delicious pass given space. Isn't that what creativity is? Using vision to open a hole in a defence to thread a ball through or to lob one in behind the defenders?
Re: Poli (apologies 'ACMILAN1983' I've no idea what your actual name is), I am looking so so forward to tomorrow. Not just to see how the team is progressing in HD, but Poli in particular. He's the most (only) high profile signing we've made and he looks to be a permanent starter. He's been excellent V Sass and Valencia and it'll be important to see how he does against City.
Re: Boateng; I have doubts too. Believe me, this isn't me haphazardly suggesting Boateng. But he has shown in the past how good he can be and while my hands are up first before anyone when he isn't doing it, when he is he's superb. But then Balo has had many shockers for us too - it's just he scores. A LOT. So gets away with it. It's when a creative player doesn't do HIS job he gets castrated more because his main job is assists. And off form those assists and cultured passes reduce while even if a top striker is not bang in form in terms of all-round play he can still score.
RE: Allegri's system next season - xudong - 07-31-2013
"not that creative as you claim" and "able to pass well when given space" don't conflict. what I tried to say that is that Boateng's creativity is conditional (hence, limited). the same can be said even about me. I can pick out a delicious pass too with space and with luck.
anyway, Boateng does not have the skill set that is typical of a #10. for one, he is not going to get the space on which he thrive. he needs to be played in the midfield if he is to be played at all. and yes, I agree with you guys that commitment is his main issue, as right now it seems.
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 07-31-2013
(07-30-2013, 09:46 PM)Danny Wrote: tbh I am glad the most controversial thing on our pitch is Kevin-Prince Boateng. You know things are actually ok overall if he is our biggest problem. I don't count Robinho because I doubt he will get a huge amount of playing time. He'll be on the bench a LOT.
Anyway, what I find curious about Xu's comment re: Prince is he says on one hand that he isn't that creative, but on the other hand he can pick out a delicious pass given space. Isn't that what creativity is? Using vision to open a hole in a defence to thread a ball through or to lob one in behind the defenders?
Re: Poli (apologies 'ACMILAN1983' I've no idea what your actual name is), I am looking so so forward to tomorrow. Not just to see how the team is progressing in HD, but Poli in particular. He's the most (only) high profile signing we've made and he looks to be a permanent starter. He's been excellent V Sass and Valencia and it'll be important to see how he does against City.
Re: Boateng; I have doubts too. Believe me, this isn't me haphazardly suggesting Boateng. But he has shown in the past how good he can be and while my hands are up first before anyone when he isn't doing it, when he is he's superb. But then Balo has had many shockers for us too - it's just he scores. A LOT. So gets away with it. It's when a creative player doesn't do HIS job he gets castrated more because his main job is assists. And off form those assists and cultured passes reduce while even if a top striker is not bang in form in terms of all-round play he can still score.
Feel free to call me Dev.
Boateng's ability to pick out passes is limited when compared to trequartista's in the past, including Kaka who wasn't a typical playmaker, yet had far more vision than Boateng. This was particularly evident last season, when we didn't have Ibra and Boateng's form dropped. When Ibra was in the team, he offered much more creativity and Boateng's role was much about his physical capabilities, directness and ability to conjure moments of class. Without Ibra, he lost the reference point and I think felt the responsibility of adding creativity to the side, something which he isn't suited for.
Thing is, how much can we rely on Boateng? You summed up pretty well, that even when Balo's not doing well, he's still scoring. Boateng on the other hand becomes a problem when he's not doing well, as he contributes so little at these moments.
About Poli, I'm not sure he's a definite starter yet for next season, but with the current set of midfielders, he's probably fighting for a spot with Muntari, which is positive.
RE: Allegri's system next season - Danny - 07-31-2013
(07-31-2013, 05:08 AM)xudong Wrote: "not that creative as you claim" and "able to pass well when given space" don't conflict. what I tried to say that is that Boateng's creativity is conditional (hence, limited). the same can be said even about me. I can pick out a delicious pass too with space and with luck.
and yes, I agree with you guys that commitment is his main issue, as right now it seems.
Can't think of many creative players who thrive in enclosed spaces. Give Pirlo or Xavi, or Iniesta no time/space and they can't create. And that's exactly what's happened in recent months with all 3 of them hence their teams (national or club) have struggled in various competitions.
No different for Boateng. Give him space and he'll create. Cut him off and he won't. Not that I'm saying he's as good as the above 3, just that he's subject to the same rules if played in a similar position.
(07-31-2013, 11:05 AM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote:(07-30-2013, 09:46 PM)Danny Wrote: tbh I am glad the most controversial thing on our pitch is Kevin-Prince Boateng. You know things are actually ok overall if he is our biggest problem. I don't count Robinho because I doubt he will get a huge amount of playing time. He'll be on the bench a LOT.
Anyway, what I find curious about Xu's comment re: Prince is he says on one hand that he isn't that creative, but on the other hand he can pick out a delicious pass given space. Isn't that what creativity is? Using vision to open a hole in a defence to thread a ball through or to lob one in behind the defenders?
Re: Poli (apologies 'ACMILAN1983' I've no idea what your actual name is), I am looking so so forward to tomorrow. Not just to see how the team is progressing in HD, but Poli in particular. He's the most (only) high profile signing we've made and he looks to be a permanent starter. He's been excellent V Sass and Valencia and it'll be important to see how he does against City.
Re: Boateng; I have doubts too. Believe me, this isn't me haphazardly suggesting Boateng. But he has shown in the past how good he can be and while my hands are up first before anyone when he isn't doing it, when he is he's superb. But then Balo has had many shockers for us too - it's just he scores. A LOT. So gets away with it. It's when a creative player doesn't do HIS job he gets castrated more because his main job is assists. And off form those assists and cultured passes reduce while even if a top striker is not bang in form in terms of all-round play he can still score.
Feel free to call me Dev.
Boateng's ability to pick out passes is limited when compared to trequartista's in the past, including Kaka who wasn't a typical playmaker, yet had far more vision than Boateng. This was particularly evident last season, when we didn't have Ibra and Boateng's form dropped. When Ibra was in the team, he offered much more creativity and Boateng's role was much about his physical capabilities, directness and ability to conjure moments of class. Without Ibra, he lost the reference point and I think felt the responsibility of adding creativity to the side, something which he isn't suited for.
Thing is, how much can we rely on Boateng? You summed up pretty well, that even when Balo's not doing well, he's still scoring. Boateng on the other hand becomes a problem when he's not doing well, as he contributes so little at these moments.
About Poli, I'm not sure he's a definite starter yet for next season, but with the current set of midfielders, he's probably fighting for a spot with Muntari, which is positive.
Greetings Dev
First off Boateng had a good period between November and March where he played rather well. He was our best player in Barcelona. Going forward anyway. So I think it's unfair to say he had a poor season last year. Technically he was better than El Sha who basically stopped contributing from about December onwards.
I think Poli has a chance, and I disagree he's up against Muntari who's far more of a CM with a hint of 'destroyer'. I'd say Muntari and Noce et al are squad players who will play in a rotating fashion but I would hope Poli, Monto and De Jong will be the first picks in midfield.
But I am still pleased to be on a forum where Muntari and Niang are not viewed so despicably.
RE: Allegri's system next season - xudong - 07-31-2013
While it is true that there aren't a plethora of #10 now left, I don't think using Iniesta is going to help your argument. Iniesta would be a perfect example of being able to create with extremely limited space, while Boateng is just .. meh....
RE: Allegri's system next season - Danny - 07-31-2013
(07-31-2013, 05:39 PM)xudong Wrote: While it is true that there aren't a plethora of #10 now left, I don't think using Iniesta is going to help your argument. Iniesta would be a perfect example of being able to create with extremely limited space, while Boateng is just .. meh....
Really? So he created chance after chance for Barca V Bayern and for Spain V Brazil?
These teams stopped him getting space, him and Xavi. It strangled those teams.
Any treq can be stopped the same way.
I do take your point but Iniesta, like any footballer, still needs space. Boateng isn't on the same planet, don't get me wrong: I am NOT the MM Boateng whore. Just think there's a potential place for him in the team. As long as his head is, unlike tonight.
RE: Allegri's system next season - xudong - 07-31-2013
Everyone needs space; some needs inches, some needs feet.
Everyone can try to control a ball; some keeps it at their own feet, some does it to feet away.
Any treq can be stopped the same way; some harder, some easier, some can be stopped by themselves.
I personally don't remember any moment when Boateng adeptly dribbles past defenders and creates space for himself. Iniesta does it frequently.
And honestly, I can't believe that I am putting Iniesta and Boateng in a same sentence when it comes to creativity. I have problem with Boateng taking #10 jersey, but I have bigger problem with him being played as #10. I will just leave it here.
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 08-01-2013
tbh, yesterday evening's game showed why Boateng shouldn't play as trequartista. He had one decent run in behind the City defence, but beyond that he created very little.