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RE: Allegri's system next season - Revolver - 05-31-2013
(05-30-2013, 04:52 PM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: It was Sacchi's Milan that shaped my thoughts on how football should be played. I watched the matches when young and the side left me amazed although I was too young to really appreciate the tactical aspect of the game. As I've grown older I've grown to appreciate what Sacchi's ideas were about and how far ahead of his time he actually was (even now I think his ideas are more advanced than most).
I can understand where you're coming from, because you had one "winger", who was more dominant offensively (Donadoni) and another who was more withdrawn (Colombo). However, where the real complexity comes in imo is the freedom the players had. Donadoni may have been predominantly on the left, but he was free to move across. Like total football, the concept was to ensure gaps wouldn't be left behind, meaning others (Ancelotti or Evani in your example) would cover or move to find balance.
Anyway, that was kind of the point I was making in the paragraph you quoted. While most (including me) will say the basic shape might be 4-4-2, it was very fluid and the side often changed shape during matches, switching to 4-3-3, 4-2-3-1 or as you've said here, 4-3-1-2.
I agree with you, Sacchi was ahead of his time, and although some rules changed drastically, some of his ideas that were new at the time, or rarely used, like pressure, high defensive line, flat back four, attacking side backs, and above all tactical awareness on the pitch are still relevant today.
As I found some time, I've drawn a simple diagram in Paint, which doesn't look great, but serves the purpose.
![[Image: field6.jpg]](http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/3576/field6.jpg)
Here are the players:
1. G. Galli, 2. Tassotti, 3. Maldini, 4. Colombo, 5. Costacurta, 6. Baresi, 7. Donadoni, 8. Rijkaard, 9. Van Basten, 10. Gullit, 11. Ancelotti.
Black dots are obviously players positions in starting formation, 4-3-1-2
Red dots and red lines are positions and movements of players when Donadoni moves to horizontal left. This way team forms 4-4-2.
Blue dots and blue line are positions and movements of players when Donadoni moves to diagonal left, This way team forms 4-3-3.
So, Donadoni, like you said, had freedom to move around. When he moved, the whole midfield four, or sometimes even Gullit with them, moved.
For example if Donadoni would move to the right midfield, and we would finish our attack like that, he would stay right and the other three midfielders would shift to the left to form cohesive and balanced 4 + 4 defense as soon as possible.
And it's not just Donadoni, and even not just midfield. Whoever leaved his designated position and went to attack, the gaps were filled as soon as possible when the ball is lost, and the player that leaved his position would stay and defended whenever he was at the moment. For example, it Tassoti would go high up to attack, say on the right wing, and if we would lose the ball, he would stay at the position, and Rijkaard would move in between Costacurta and Baresi, with Costacurta moving to the right to cover the space left by Tassoti. Just like that, Colombo would move into the middle to cover Rijkaard's position. Furthermore, whole team would move higher up the pitch to apply the pressure. Look at the following picture:
![[Image: field8.jpg]](http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/1692/field8.jpg)
This diagram shows a situation when Tassoti, number 2, went up and the ball is lost. Blue dot is the opposition player that has the ball.
Red dots and red lines are positions and movements of the players when the ball is lost, excluding number 2 whose movement upward happened before the ball is lost, and his red dot shows his current position.
This second diagram proves how important Rijkaard was for this whole system, and shows another Sacchi's masterpiece, i.e. fielding a center defender into holding midfielder position. This alone allowed either of side backs to attack up to the right wing position, which was unimaginable before Sacchi, especially in Italy.
Ironically, Sacchi's system couldn't stand for a long time, say few years, because constant pressure was very tiring for his players. And paradoxically, 20 years after he started his reign in Milan, innovations in training methods allowed this kind of pressure game being played constantly without players being exhausted after few years. This is the best prove of Sacchi being ahead of his time.
RE: Allegri's system next season - Danny - 05-31-2013
(05-30-2013, 04:52 PM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: I'm aware it's early, but at the same time it's not too busy of late and I'd like to hear how people want us to evolve tactically. As you can see, I already have many thoughts about how I want us to develop.
I'll reply fully on Sunday when apparently it's announced whether he's staying or going
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 06-01-2013
I look forward to reading your thoughts Danny.
Great post Revolver. You hit many of the key points such as how we evolved Total Football and the situation you mention with Rijkaard is something Barca only started doing with Busquets under Pep, 20 years after Sacchi.
About the formation, I think you also explained why people perceive the system as 4-4-2, as you said that defensively we shape up with 4+4. Personally, I tend to write formations based on defensive set up, which I think many others do too, so having 4+4 will immediately leave 2 up front (though in Sacchi's system, the attackers defended too). What I will suggest next time you watch a game of that side, take note of the fullback positions in defence, as they aren't in line with the CBs, but actually often a line higher. This was key to pressing high correctly, as the only time we'd really have a flat back 4 is when the CBs pushed up in line with the fullbacks and play offside. Our set up was often like this defensively:
---------------------GK------------------------
---------CB--------------------CB-------------
FB-------------------------------------------FB
--------------M--------------M----------------
M--------------------------------------------M
--------------A---------------A----------------
Obviously it looks very open here, but imagine that but much tighter.
Btw, you (and to anyone else this should be a must watch imo) might be interested in knowing youtube has the full Milan 5-1 Real match and a channel called something like Canale Hazon61, who posts vids of stuff from that time (with lengthy highlights or parts of Matches from Sacchi's Milan).
RE: Allegri's system next season - Revolver - 06-01-2013
(06-01-2013, 12:52 PM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: I look forward to reading your thoughts Danny.
Great post Revolver. You hit many of the key points such as how we evolved Total Football and the situation you mention with Rijkaard is something Barca only started doing with Busquets under Pep, 20 years after Sacchi.
About the formation, I think you also explained why people perceive the system as 4-4-2, as you said that defensively we shape up with 4+4. Personally, I tend to write formations based on defensive set up, which I think many others do too, so having 4+4 will immediately leave 2 up front (though in Sacchi's system, the attackers defended too). What I will suggest next time you watch a game of that side, take note of the fullback positions in defence, as they aren't in line with the CBs, but actually often a line higher. This was key to pressing high correctly, as the only time we'd really have a flat back 4 is when the CBs pushed up in line with the fullbacks and play offside. Our set up was often like this defensively:
---------------------GK------------------------
---------CB--------------------CB-------------
FB-------------------------------------------FB
--------------M--------------M----------------
M--------------------------------------------M
--------------A---------------A----------------
Obviously it looks very open here, but imagine that but much tighter.
Btw, you (and to anyone else this should be a must watch imo) might be interested in knowing youtube has the full Milan 5-1 Real match and a channel called something like Canale Hazon61, who posts vids of stuff from that time (with lengthy highlights or parts of Matches from Sacchi's Milan).
Thank you for your comments. There are some full games of that era, among them is that one you mentioned, vs Real Madrid, CL semi final, a must watch for anyone interested in Milan history.
About flat back four... you're right, full (side) backs played a line higher than center backs, but anyway "flat back four" expression meaning as I understand it is that all 4 defenders play pretty much in the line, unlike setups with libero, who played behind the other three defenders.
When mentioning flat back four, someone might be interested that something that was near flat back four was first tried by Hungary team of Puskas known as "Mighty Magyars" back in the early 50's, but evolved with the famous Brazil generation of Pele and Garrincha at the late 50's and early 60's, from the 3-2-5 formation known as WM that was very popular at the time, when a then striker Didi was pushed down in midfield, dropping one midfielder into the defense, that formed flat back four. Though most NTs at 60's and 70's used a setup with libero, Brazil always played with flat back four at the time.
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 06-02-2013
(06-01-2013, 01:57 PM)Revolver Wrote: Thank you for your comments. There are some full games of that era, among them is that one you mentioned, vs Real Madrid, CL semi final, a must watch for anyone interested in Milan history.
About flat back four... you're right, full (side) backs played a line higher than center backs, but anyway "flat back four" expression meaning as I understand it is that all 4 defenders play pretty much in the line, unlike setups with libero, who played behind the other three defenders.
When mentioning flat back four, someone might be interested that something that was near flat back four was first tried by Hungary team of Puskas known as "Mighty Magyars" back in the early 50's, but evolved with the famous Brazil generation of Pele and Garrincha at the late 50's and early 60's, from the 3-2-5 formation known as WM that was very popular at the time, when a then striker Didi was pushed down in midfield, dropping one midfielder into the defense, that formed flat back four. Though most NTs at 60's and 70's used a setup with libero, Brazil always played with flat back four at the time.
You might be interested in reading Inverting the Pyramid by Jonathan Wilson if I'm honest. It's one of the best books on the history of tactics ever.
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 06-04-2013
Yesterday I responded to Gregorio's post about 4-2-3-1 and it got me thinking as to how it might work. I'm not saying it will work, but it's an experiment worth investigating over the summer imo.
As for how it might work, Gregorio's lineup was:
Balotelli
El Shaarawy Saponara Cerci
Poli Montolivo
Constant (De Sciglio) Ogbonna Zapata Abate (De Sciglio)
Abbiati
Assuming we have those players (i.e. sign Ogbonna, Poli and Cerci), then theoretically it couldwork, but a lot depends on the wingers.
Revolver pointed out the defence needs to be protected, which I agree with him. If Poli and Montolivo (two midfielders who by nature aren't holding midfielders) are two work in front of the defence, then El Shaarawy and Cerci must be prepared to act as wingers who defend (in a sense, they're ideal as both work extremely hard).
That isn't to say Montolivo and Poli aren't capable defensively, as both have shown they are good in winning the ball back over the past year. More interesting is both are very good good playing midfielders, something which is vital in CM in recent years (see Juve, Barca, Bayern, Real and others, all of whom have technically gifted ball players in midfield).
While 4-2-3-1 might be the shape when shown on tv when showing lineups, I think it would have to work differently in reality. Firstly, if the wingers are to defend, the shape would be closer to 4-4-1-1 like this (defensively):
------------Abbiati--------------
Abate(DS)--Zapata-Ogbonna---Constant(DS)
Cerci---Montolivo-Poli------El Shaarawy
-------------Saponara------------
------------Balotelli------------
Defensively, I would want us to take shape as I've discussed in other recent posts in this thread (2 lines of 4 extremely tight and pressing together). Due to the curved lines of 4, on the pitch it might appear as 4-2-3-1, but ultimately we're talking semantics.
I've watched a lot of Saponara of late as I've been interested in seeing what he can do. One of the things I notice is that while he's predominantly a central player, he often finds most space in the wide areas, as he's got good movement. This could work well with El Shaarawy and Cerci, both of who are wingers who can move up as forwards. Essentially, what I'd want is to see Saponara moving across his line into wide areas, with the winger joining Balotelli in attack. If he moves left for example, then we'd have something like:
---------------Abbiati-----------------
Abate(DS)--Zapata-Ogbonna-----Constant(DS)
Cerci-----Montolivo-Poli------Saponara-
--------Balotelli----El Shaarawy-------
Likewise, if he moves right, then Cerci comes in:
---------------Abbiati-----------------
Abate(DS)--Zapata-Ogbonna-----Constant(DS)
Saponara----Montolivo-Poli------El Shaarawy
--------Cerci---------Balotelli---------
Of course, the final scenario would be he pushes up into attack with Balotelli himself, meaning the wingers stay as they are.
I've stuck with 4-4-2 when we push up as it maintains balance, but mostly because I would want the whole side to press high (keeping the lines tight), rather than creating additional lines which stretch the side (although obviously there are scenarios where this would happen).
As for potential problems with this lineup, I hope we don't put too much pressure on Poli, but we've got De Jong and Cristante who he can alternate with for next season. The other problem is Saponara, who is clearly talented, but at this point I'd be very surprised if he's a starter next season, never mind playing a pivotal role in the side. Given we don't really have another player to do the role, it would either come down to keeping Boateng (who I'm certain would be able to play the role) or maybe Honda (another who I think can play the role). I will stress that in this approach, Saponara for me isn't a normal trequartista, which is why I think Boateng or Honda can do the role. Finally, El Shaarawy would need to understand that even though he joins the attack, his primary role isn't as an attacker. This is something I think he needs anyway, as during the second half of the season his focus was like that of a forward, rather than always focusing on his role in the side.
RE: Allegri's system next season - GeoTav - 06-06-2013
I don't know if Allegri is going to use two strikers as it seems Berlusconi wants ...
If he does, and if we come back with a kind of 4-3-1-2, it might be ideal to include all our attacking players (Balotelli - ELS as starters, Pazzini able to replace any of them, Niang could be a surprise too in a 2 striker line, and then, if there is any new young player, like Petagna, as a sub, it's easier for them to play with another striker than alone).
Side note : With 4-3-1-2, if one of the strikers is Niang or El Sharaawy, the formation could easily change into a 4-3-2-1 (Christmas Tree formation) when we defend.
Then, that doesn't change a lot of things about the 3 midfielders (we need one "destructor"/box to box player depending on the opponent, and two ball players if possible, and not the contrary).
The main problem remains : who will play as our trequartista ? If it's Boateng again, that doesn't work and it'll be a failure again (and Allegri could easily let this formation not working for 2-3 games just to show to Berlusconi that it's time to change if we don't want to live another chaotic start ...). If it's Saponara, then we don't know if he's up to the task and we don't have any player able to replace him if he's a really good surprise.
Actually, right now, with the few rumours about Berlusconi being the new coach (just kidding, I mean the rumours about Berlu wanting us to play with 2 strikers and a trequartista) and the mercato still being quiet in Milan, we have absolutely no clue about the way we'll play next season !!
RE: Allegri's system next season - Aficio - 06-06-2013
We have 3 formation to choose: 4312, 433 and 4231
We have some players to buy: Pastore, Cerci, Kaka,...
I think there 2 paths:
- Buy player(s) then choose formation. Ex: buy Cerci, play 433. Buy Pastore, play 4312. Buy both Cerci and Pastore, play 4231
- Choose formation and buy the suitable player(s) at all cost. Like Berlusconi wants to play 4312 and loves to bring Kaka back for the "1"
RE: Allegri's system next season - Aficio - 06-09-2013
Continue from my last short post
There are problems with the defense, but those relate to players' abilities. So next season this will be our defensive 5:
----------------Abbiati-----------------
--Abate---Mexes--Zapata---De Sci--
About the rest, I think there are some questions to be answered. Normally, the formation should adapt current players and next opponent, but we don't have a concrete enemy now, so let focus on the boys we have:
1. Which kind of forward is Balotelli?
2. Which kind of player is Saporana (a sure addition)?
3. Can we play with 2 forwards?
4. Do we really have good wingers?
5. Who will be the ideal addition for:
a) 4312
b) 433
c) 4231
1. Balotelli is very similar to Ibra. A big strong and skillful forward who need almost every ball near the earth, because he sucks at heading. This type can be best at 2 things:
- Lead the attack with the ball at his feet
- Attract the defense for other players (mostly midfielders) to go forward
2. From what I saw, Saporana possesses great physical abilities. The way he runs, shields the ball, and fends off defenders is magnificent. However, his skills are at basic level, not bad, yet not exceptional. Galliani said he would be CM, and I agree. A box-to-box is suited for his style. IMO, one of Allegri's specialties is using (R/LCM) to attack. One requirement for this to work is a forward who can attract defense. Nocerino became a star with Ibra's help (but failed with Pazzini because the Italian is a penalty box), Flamini scored a bunch with Balotelli's presence, and I think Lazzari in Cagliari is also the same.
3. Normally, we need a poacher and a supporter to play 2 SCs formation. It could be one skillful and plays deeper like Baggio/Del Piero, and one penalty box like Vieri/Inzaghi. A big strong post-player like Heskey with quick-feet Owen is another option. Andy Cole & Dwright Yorke is quite an exception but they can play at the top level for only one season (98/99). Neither is Sheva & Pippo a good pair. Ancelotti preferred Xmas tree with Sheva on top to playing both.
In our team, Balotelli & SES are sure starters, yet their cooperation is questionable. We will see more clearly after Confederation Cup. However I think they are not compatible now. Unless SES plays poacher and Balotelli plays deeper, which is not hard since SES’ goal instinct is top level.
4. We have many players who can be counted as wingers: SES, Niang, Binho, Emanuellson, Boateng, Constant, and Abate. However, none of them can provide reliable crosses, and none of our strikers except Pazzini (will be injured for a half season) can head the ball properly. Even if we try to play with wingers, we must play narrower or buy at least a good crosser and buy/train a good header. Bayern has a pair of cutting inside wingers but their SCs are very good at heading, and Ribery & Lahm are very good crosser (I don’t know about Abala since I rarely watched them last season). Barca is an exception, but we can’t play tiki taka like them, and their new players like Sanchez, Villa and even Fabregas are not compatible. So I think 433 or 4231 are not good option.
5a) For 4312, we will play like this:
---Saporana---De Jong---Montolivo---
-------------------Pastore-------------------
---------Balotelli-----------------------------
------------------------------SES------------
Right-----------------------------------Left
With the addition of Pastore’s level. I also like Eriksen. Boateng and Binho could be sold to afford the signing.
Three highest players can attract defenders for 2 shuttlers: Saporana & Montolivo.
5b)
------------------De Jong------------------
---Saporana---------------Montolivo---
---Cerci---------------------------SES---
------------------Balo/Niang--------------
Cerci is leftfooted, fast, and can cross very well :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XD-kN13rPrs
He or players like him (not really need leftfooted
) is required.Niang should play SC.
Like 5b, three highest players can attract defenders for 2 shuttlers: Saporana & Montolivo.
5c)
------Montolivo--------------De Jong------
---Cerci----------Pastore----------SES---
-----------------Balo/Niang------------------
This formation need both the required players from 5a & 5b
Bot Monty & De Jong must stay deep.
IMO, 4312 is the best for our current players and we are not unfamiliar to it. We just lack a capable CAM which is not hard to find in the market.
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 06-11-2013
I'm not a fan of 4-3-1-2 if I'm honest. I think unless it transforms into other shapes (like I said in my post about 4-2-3-1), it is very rigid and narrow to play.
However, I'm not saying no to 4-3-1-2 or any particular system, AS LONG AS we're flexible and follow the core concept I've discussed in recent weeks (essentially my posts about Sacchi's idealogy).