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RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 05-30-2012
I've been thinking a fair amount recent discussions and rumours and have been thinking more and more we'll see a change of approach next season. Allegri said Boateng could work in midfield and in a wide area, rather than central. Also, given he's spoken of Muntari and Montolivo in central positions, I wouldn't be surprised if we were to change from our 3 man midfield to another midfield altogether (i.e. 2 central midfielders). Looking at our attacking lineup too, this could work given that most of our forwards naturally like to push wide. Also, Nocerino's an odd case, as while he's been successful this season there are doubts as to whether he can start regularly, particularly in big games. Also, he's more offensive than defensive and therefore might benefit us in a role with slightly less defensive duties.
From this I think we could naturally move to a 4-2-3-1. Ibra works as natural front man, but would be supported by 3 players behind. This line would be composed of midfielders and forwards, as well as a new trequartista. In front of the defence we have solid midfielders, who can act/are ball players. So what we might see is...
------------Abbiati-------------
Abate---???------Thiago------Urby/Antonini/Didac
----------???----Montolivo------
---Boateng----???----Cassano---
--------------Ibra--------------
Note: ??? are positions we presumably
want new players for.
With this we'd naturally press higher than we currently do as well as have more width in the side. We also have Pato, Robinho and El Shaarawy, all of who are capable on either the left or right, along with Cassano. Nocerino and Traore, like Boateng can work in a wide position too, which would stop his defensive duties overwhelming his capacity to go forward.
Montolivo, Muntari, someone new and Ambro would be good cover to the 2 CM/DM roles in the side. Our biggest stumbling block would be the trequartista role, which we currently don't have a natural suiter for. We'd need a new player here, with Boateng, Urby and Robinho (and probably Cassano) all capable of filling in every so often.
This system again places a lot of emphasis on Ibra, but at least in this he'd have more support pushing forward from behind and from out wide. Ideally, we'd have an alternative to Ibra up front, though Pato can also play centrally too.
I'm not saying we will see this happen, but if it does then I can see a natural progression for us to adopting this system. Berlu might initially have issue with 1 out and out forward, but I presume we'd play at least one of Pato, Binho, Cassano or El Shaarawy with Ibra, so we'd still have 2 forwards on the pitch.
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 07-16-2012
It's been a while since this thread was last active and at risk of posting to myself now, I will post some new thoughts given the recent massive changes in and around the club.
Right, Thiago Silva is gone and it's pretty safe to assume Ibra's gone too. We also still need a midfielder and debatably a LB in addition to getting new CBs or forwards, so I'm going to assume that we will get 3-4 reinforcements when putting out suggested lineups/systems.
First thing first, with the loss of stars and lack of other star names likely to come into place, I think we need to change emphasis of our game from being reliant on the individual qualities making up the team and relying on a strong structure within the team working as a unit. This will surely benefit our consistency and ability to play well as a unit. In this regard, I think the key to our mercato isn't getting "replacements" for Ibra and Silva, but rather building the squad with a philosophy (presumably Allegri's
).The signings so far emphasise attacking movements in the market rather than defensive (Traore, Montolivo, Muntari and Constant are all better known for their attacking game than defensive). However, what I would say is every move so far places importance on pressing high up the pitch. The midfielders mentioned above will all push forward and all can press opponents high. Acerbi too, whilst a CB has shown and even said he likes to push high and again looks like a player who will want to win the ball back early. Therefore, I think the system must play in this way, with forwards who will also press high.
For this reason, Dzeko (who has slightly better stats than Ibra defensively, but imo if used correctly is more willing to press opposing defenders) or Tevez, whose defensive contribution needs no debate, seem interesting options recently put in the press. Personally, I like the look of Dzeko, whose not only younger, but with his height and strength he can act well as a target man and is really in his element and at his best when playing off someone (i.e. Pato). Tevez would act as a supporting forward and offers more creativity and better pressing off the ball. However, personally I feel he offers less variety and options, meaning we'd have to rely on a specific style of play (most likely a shorter quicker passing game) than have various options of play. Character and money is a factor, with Tevez more likely to cause disrutptions in the squad and have a bigger wage. Our options aren't limited though, with Van Persie available, as well as possibilities in Balotelli (already rejected by the club, but I'm not taking their word for it) or even Destro, who imo at 21 it would be a lot to ask him to lead the line, even if I want spaces for young Italians. Speaking of Destro, I would love him as an option off the bench in place of Cassano or Binho.
That goes to midfield, which at the moment only really lacks a deep playmaker imo, as we have a pretty balanced midfield otherwise. With the sale of Thiago Silva, we've lost a director of our play from deep. As there are no defenders available who can do this as proficiently as Silva, I'd suggest we go back to having a regista. Some might argue (fairly), that we had this in Pirlo, but the player must have balance imo. Therefore, I'd like to see us get a good ball player, but one who will still offer a level of solidity in protecting the backline that Pirlo didn't. Also we must bear in mind Montolivo is also a player who will take on duties to start moves from deep and be a player to protect the backline. Therefore, a player like Strootman or ideally Sahin imo seems best suited (Xabi Alonso's been mentioned, but imo at 30 isn't a player we should be investing in right now).
That leaves our defence. Without the regista style duties Silva had, we need to place emphasis on getting someone who can lead the defensive line, offer stability and generally be able to slot in naturally in Allegri's set up. This lead me to Astori, who understands Milan's culture having grown up in Milan, has the ability to lead the defence as seen in Cagliari and has worked well in the past with Allegri. As I mentioned in the mercato thread, I think he could work well with Acerbi acting somewhat like a safety net as Acerbi likes to push high. It's debatable whether we need a new LB, personally we have so many I'm for giving the likes of Urby or Didac a chance.
Going into systems, I'd now stick to the 4-3-1-2 as much of the side is familiar and comfortable with the shape. What I would vary is having the two mezzala (or maybe a fullback if they've gone into attack with the mezzala covering) press higher up the pitch to make it difficult for opponents to get out of their defence.
As for our pressing, I'd have two phases of pressing. The first would be to have a full press, which is to win the ball back deep in the opponents half. If we fail to do this, then we revert to a false press, where the odd player will close down opponents while the rest of the side takes its shape ready to press deeper in defence (i.e. half press). As opposed to Juve who last season ALWAYS did a full press, this should allow us to control and manage games more easily, as well as being a little less demanding physically. This also adds a level of safety to fairly high risk systems, similar to why I'd like Astori acting as a safety net for Acerbi.
Going forward, I think we'd achieve a good balance between the regista and mezzala. With Montolivo and Sahin, we'd have two players with the ability to start moves and direct the side. However, either player can also drive forward as a more traditional mezzala. Meanwhile, you'd have Nocerino, Traore, Constant or Muntari providing runners who can drive forward and join the attack.
I also think our forward line would be interesting. Boateng naturally has a tendency to move wide or drive into the box, meaning he'd push up into attack as we move into our attacking move. With Dzeko, who also moves into wider channels as opposed to Ibra who moves deep but centrally, it means the central areas could be driven into, with Pato or the mezzala's running in from deep. The key to our moves would be having a quick transition from defence into attack. This has been one of Allegri's strengths since joining and it should be utilised with players that compliment the concept.
RE: Allegri's system next season - xudong - 07-16-2012
This is a great time to revisit this thread. I will not try to comment on each and every point in your post, so I will randomly throw out a few thoughts of mine.
I appreciate and share your optimism on the mercato and our future team philosophy in general.
Quote:I think we need to change emphasis of our game from being reliant on the individual qualities making up the team and relying on a strong structure within the team working as a unit. This will surely benefit our consistency and ability to play well as a unit.
Of course, I still think that Silva was/is/will not be in conflict with this "team" philosophy, so his departure remains a big loss to me. I like how you evaluate Astori, particularly his Milan root, relationship with Allegri, and the leadership in him.
Quote: ... who understands Milan's culture having grown up in Milan, has the ability to lead the defence as seen in Cagliari and has worked well in the past with Allegri. As I mentioned in the mercato thread, I think he could work well with Acerbi acting somewhat like a safety net as Acerbi likes to push high.
On midfield, as intriguing as it sounds, I doubt that Allegri will go back to regista. Again, the loss of Silva was a big blow, as he actually reminded me of Baresi who defended well but also started our play from deep back. I also don't think we can trust any defender with that task, but as I said, I don't believe that Allegri will go back to that old system without "Allegri stamp". I do agree with you that we probably will find someone that can effectively protect the backline, and start play from deep, but the midfield should work as a compact unit based on quick short passes, as opposed to the long and slow passes (lol, by "slow", I meant that we relied on Pirlo who was simply holding the ball in the ball, walking around with it, dodging the tackles with the help of Gattuso, looking unurgent, and all of a sudden launching the long balls forward while looking another direction). Even Pirlo at his old age without proper protection had failed, so I think we should move forward with a "unit". Montolivo certainly fits the bill, and we should look for more players with that attributes (runner AND good short passer).
On the attack line, I was a little surprised that you didn't seem to mention Pato much. Was that because that you think that he would automatically occupy one seat as long as he is fit, or you actually don't trust him any more in our system? I believe that his health is going to be key for us. He is probably our only super star in the team now (which means that he will be sold soon.
), and if he stays fit, getting his confidence back certainly would not be an issue since he will be playing match in and match out and goals are bound to arrive in plethora. I don't mind the idea of Destro pairing up with Pato. As for Dzeko, I like that he is younger, taller (aerial ability), and a Milanista in his heart, but I have read comments somewhere else that he and Pato are both poachers thus can't work together. Is that true? I am not so enthusiastic with Tevez now, as he would demand high salary (thus undoing our effort towards a heathier financial future) and won't stay too long (older, and he has always claimed to go back to Boca one day). I also would stick to the 4-3-1-2, which leaves us the "1" here. Boateng is the incumbent candidate here, but somehow I have my concerns. First, his most recent request for a raise shows that he lacks due respect towards this club. While it is natural to expect from someone who has not been with the team for long, I do not appreciate that gesture; Second, he seems to me a player who could work better cutting in from the side, so I would put him in one of the two wide roles in the "3" midfield. Can we get Oscar please? He should not be too expensive, and I heard that Brazilian market is closing in matter of just a few days, and of course perhaps a bigger problem is that Chelsea allegedly has offered 20M for him.
![[Image: oscar+copy.jpg]](https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LlT8v7ZhvRM/UAIMIVWxgvI/AAAAAAAABgw/faeG4xVMWcs/s400/oscar+copy.jpg)
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 07-17-2012
(07-16-2012, 04:45 PM)xudong Wrote: This is a great time to revisit this thread. I will not try to comment on each and every point in your post, so I will randomly throw out a few thoughts of mine.
I appreciate and share your optimism on the mercato and our future team philosophy in general.
Of course, I still think that Silva was/is/will not be in conflict with this "team" philosophy, so his departure remains a big loss to me. I like how you evaluate Astori, particularly his Milan root, relationship with Allegri, and the leadership in him.
On midfield, as intriguing as it sounds, I doubt that Allegri will go back to regista. Again, the loss of Silva was a big blow, as he actually reminded me of Baresi who defended well but also started our play from deep back. I also don't think we can trust any defender with that task, but as I said, I don't believe that Allegri will go back to that old system without "Allegri stamp". I do agree with you that we probably will find someone that can effectively protect the backline, and start play from deep, but the midfield should work as a compact unit based on quick short passes, as opposed to the long and slow passes (lol, by "slow", I meant that we relied on Pirlo who was simply holding the ball in the ball, walking around with it, dodging the tackles with the help of Gattuso, looking unurgent, and all of a sudden launching the long balls forward while looking another direction). Even Pirlo at his old age without proper protection had failed, so I think we should move forward with a "unit". Montolivo certainly fits the bill, and we should look for more players with that attributes (runner AND good short passer).
On the attack line, I was a little surprised that you didn't seem to mention Pato much. Was that because that you think that he would automatically occupy one seat as long as he is fit, or you actually don't trust him any more in our system? I believe that his health is going to be key for us. He is probably our only super star in the team now (which means that he will be sold soon.
I also would stick to the 4-3-1-2, which leaves us the "1" here. Boateng is the incumbent candidate here, but somehow I have my concerns. First, his most recent request for a raise shows that he lacks due respect towards this club. While it is natural to expect from someone who has not been with the team for long, I do not appreciate that gesture; Second, he seems to me a player who could work better cutting in from the side, so I would put him in one of the two wide roles in the "3" midfield. Can we get Oscar please? He should not be too expensive, and I heard that Brazilian market is closing in matter of just a few days, and of course perhaps a bigger problem is that Chelsea allegedly has offered 20M for him.
It's hard to be optimistic, but realistically we surely must expect some of the recent injection of money to be invested in strengthening the squad. I read today that Rolando's apparently waiting for us to get in touch, while Tasci rumours are growing, so it seems Astori's unlikely (especially with the recent contract extension).
Anyway, to get to your points:
About the regista, it's hard to know what to expect at this point, but I will say Allegri recently commented on him wanting a playmaker in front of defence and with Thiago's loss we do need someone deep who will direct play along with Montolivo. You said it well when saying like Baresi, Thiago started our moves in the recent past. With no defenders around who can do that, I think we'll need to see if midfielders can do it imo, hence the need for a regista.
I agree with the midfield (and the side) working as a tight unit. I've always been heavily influenced by Sacchi's concepts in football and therefore would love to see this ideal. Like you, I can see Thiago Silva fitting into this, but moreso now that Ibra's gone we have removed the biggest obstacle we had for teamplay above individualism.
Pato, if fit for me is an automatic starter and I see him as integral to the system I described, as I'd want him to start just off the leading forward, with the aim to drive through on goal as the players move to open up opponents. It's not just Pato's one of the most gifted footballers I've ever seen, but also because unlike Cassano and Robinho, he makes much more vertical movements and therefore seems best suited to play the role. His health is an obvious concern, but I've definitely not lost my trust in his ability. As for Dzeko and Pato working together, I think Revolver has given a good explanation in the past in comparing it to Dzeko and Grafite at Wolfsburg, in that Dzeko worked well with Grafite as he wasn't simply a poacher and offered so much more. Dzeko, for his part is a much more complete player than given credit for, although I'd be lying if I said he's perfect for Milan after seeing him for City.
I like Boateng as AM if I'm honest. He's not the most creative, but he's a goal threat and his movement stretches play well as he takes up wide positions. As a mezzala, I think we'd lose some of the goal threat he offers higher up, and we have so many options now for those roles (Constant, Traore, Montolivo, Nocerino, Muntari and even Urby). I think Oscar's beyond reach if I'm honest, as Chelsea reportedly offered 25m and Internacional want 30m+ for him.
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 09-01-2012
Now that the market has closed we know what our squad is for this season (at least until January). I presume this is also a good chance now to consider our options in terms of how we are to play this season, with quite a few opportunities available to us now given the variety of players we have in the squad, mostly in attack. For this reason, Allegri should utilise this and make use of the different players at his disposal.
My ideal system now would vary from 4-3-1-2 to 4-3-3 depending on who plays, and even then I'd suggest that mostly depends on how we want to defend more than how we attack.
If we play 4-3-1-2 I'd start with something like...
----------Abbiati-------------
Abate--Bonera--Acerbi--De Sciglio
-----------De Jong------------
----Montolivo-----Nocerino----
------------Boateng-----------
------------------Robinho/Bojan
-----------Pato---------------
The idea here is Boateng's the first line of defence and the first player to press opponents high up the pitch. When we attack, he has in the past moved wide and in this system I'd want him to continue this way, with Robinho/Bojan having freedom to move across to both wings to make room for midfielders coming through (making essentially a 4-3-3 when attacking). I will say now I hope De Sciglio gets opportunities this season and that's why I put him as LB ahead of Antonini, Mesbah and Vila. Similar for Acerbi, he's at an age where with a more experienced defender he can learn to develop. He had his moments in preseason, but also looked to be improving every game he played.
Going back to systems playing 4-3-3 would look closer to this...
------------Abbiati-------------
Abate---Bonera--Acerbi---De Sciglio
------------De Jong-------------
----Montolivo-------Nocerino----
--Boateng----------------Bojan--
--------------Pato--------------
I genuinely believe Bojan is better suited to 4-3-3 than Robinho, while El Shaarawy could potentially do well but is the most raw talent there at the moment. More importantly, there are a few things to consider. In this system I'd want to see a four man midfield when defending with Boateng dropping back into RW and Nocerino pushing wide left. This would allow Montolivo and De Jong, our best pressing midfielders to alternate in pressing up the pitch while the other stays deep to protect the midfield. Going forward I want to see our approach to change compared to what we saw vs Samp. Firstly, I'm not keen on players who hug the touchline as Robinho and El Shaarawy did as that often results in a disconnect between the attackers. Instead I want to see movement across the front 3. This to me is where Pato is key, as he's a player I want to see more movement from and I want to see him moving across the line, alternating positions with Boateng and Bojan and every so often dropping deep to allow them to fill the gap left behind. His performance against Napoli back in 2011 always comes to mind as he was exemplary in that game leading the line, his best performance in a Milan shirt imo. Those who haven't seen it can see highlights here...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQS-nmcHnV0
If Pato's injured then Pazzini comes in. He offers more traditional target man options and therefore we should adjust to suit that. Urby's a good player for Pazzini as he's excellent when it comes to getting crosses into the box. We'd still need Boateng imo as he's important for dropping into midfield, though El Shaarawy can also do this as seen in preseason. Bojan and Robinho would benefit Pazzini as they also both can get crosses into the box. Getting back to Pato, he can also play the right forward role really well, as we saw under Leonardo and also against Cesena when Ibra made his debut (a match we lost but not due to his personal failures)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ic8sWLfMF4
If we play 4-3-3, then our CF is key to making it work, as we'll need to adjust to make the most of their individual abilities. Overall though I must say I'm keen to see us play 4-3-3 given the players we have.
There are other alternatives available too, should we want to experiment. Elmago a few days ago posted a christmas tree system while we can even look to adopt 4-2-3-1, looking something like this:
------------Abbiati--------------
Abate----Bonera--Acerbi---De Sciglio
--------Montolivo---De Jong------
-----Bojan---Boateng---Robinho---
-------------Pato----------------
My worry over this system would be the amount of pressing we'd see in attack when we lose the ball, leaving Montolivo and De Jong under more pressure to win the ball.
Another alternative is a 3 man defence, as Allegri commented on in his latest press conference. I would suspect it would look like this...
-----------Abbiati--------------
----Zapata--Bonera--Acerbi------
-------Montolivo-De Jong--------
Abate----------------------Urby/Constant
------------Boateng-------------
-----------------Robinho/Bojan-
----------Pato------------------
Personally, I've never been particularly keen on a 3 man defence and unless Allegri intends to end up like Zaccheroni, it won't happen.
What is useful to know is we have options available to us. Right now, I'm keen to see if we can implement a 4-3-3. When I started this thread most responses were people having trouble thinking up systems without knowing who we'd get. Now that we know, I'm keen to see what people have for ideas
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACmilanXtra - 09-01-2012
Massimiliano Allegri has admitted that AC Milan have to improve defensively if they are to have a shot at success in the Serie A 2012-13 campaign. The last game really made ac Milan sick.
RE: Allegri's system next season - Aficio - 09-02-2012
If Pazzini can continue scoring, I think building a Xmas tree around him is a good solution.
------------------------Defense--------------------------
--Noce/Flamini----Jong/Ambro----Monto/Constant---
------Boateng/Els---------------Binho/Bojan-----------
--------------Pato(Sheva)/Pazzini(Pippo)--------------
RE: Allegri's system next season - ACMILAN1983 - 09-02-2012
Welcome ACmilanXtra
Aficio, how would your xmas tree work? Would the two behind Pazzini/Pato pull wide to get crosses into the box or would they (or one of them) push up to support the forward?
RE: Allegri's system next season - xudong - 09-02-2012
My preferred formation is:
----------------------------ABBIATI---------------------------
----DE SCIGLIO-----ZAPATA-----ACERBI-----ABATE----
-----------------------------DE JONG-------------------------
-----BOATENG-----------------------------MONTOLIVO----
----------------------------ROBINHO-------------------------
--------------------PAZZINI--------PATO--------------------
GK: No question mark.
RB: The only position that we are quite settled. I would play De Sciglio as he offers more offensively.
CB: I would give Acerbi a chance. Between Zapata and Bonera, I am rather indifferent, but Zapata has the age advantage, and Bonera's recent brainfart concerns me. Yepes is great as backup. I just don't know about Mexes.
LB: I would be different between Antonini, De Sciglio, Abate, Urby, or Constant. But I guess that Allegri won't even consider playing either De Sciglio, or Abate, or Urby, or Vila, or Constant there, so Antonini should be safe pick, with Bonera as his first backup. But yes, you see that I put Abate there as LB. I feel that De Sciglio is playing well as RB and there is no point of trying him out of position just because that Abate is "older". Abate however could be better than Antonini in my opinion.
DM: I don't think anyone would want argue against putting de Jong there. Ambrosini or Traore could back him up while Muntari is still recovering.
LM: Nocerino or Ambrosini should back up Montolivo.
RM: Nocerino or Montolivo or Ambrosini could back up Boateng.
AM: Robinho seems the best choice for me. Boateng is not made for that role. If necessary, maybe Montolivo can be the backup; or Bojan? El Shaarawy is not ready yet, but can play well and contribute if used properly like last season.
ATT: I don't know how many (1 or 2) attackers we will use. Pato seems the natural candidate as CF, but Pazzini's hattrack just issues a strong warning, and I personally don't see him automatically giving it up just because Pato will be back from injury. This part is fun to see.
RE: Allegri's system next season - Aficio - 09-02-2012
(09-02-2012, 05:50 PM)ACMILAN1983 Wrote: Welcome ACmilanXtra
Aficio, how would your xmas tree work? Would the two behind Pazzini/Pato pull wide to get crosses into the box or would they (or one of them) push up to support the forward?
I think running around to support the attack is a suitable description
because the quality of crosses and passes our attackers can give is average.