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+--- Thread: Winter Mercato 2014 (/showthread.php?tid=560)
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - ElMago99 - 01-12-2014
For 18M I'd pass. If he was that good, RM or Barca would have taken him.
I'd get Jorginho, have him play mezz'ala. Then, convert De Jong to RM to play as Gattuso did. Montolivo can then be our regista as he should be, with Cristante able to flank in any of the 3 midfield positions, along with Muntari.
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - nefremo - 01-12-2014
Just because trasfermarkt says that he's worth 18mil, doesn't mean that he really is worth 18 and they really do want 18 for him. And even if he did cost 18, that's 18mil we'll spent when you keep in mind we spent 12 on Matri.
In any case, the reports are saying a sum closer to 10mil. At this point Jorginho will cost between 5 and 7-8mil or maybe even more. Banega is by far the better player and still 25. I would take Banega over Jorginho any day....and any other team would as well.
Besides, how can you say something like that about a player that you clearly haven't seen play in years, if at all. You are basing your opinion on the fact that Barca and Real are not interested. Does it mean that Verratti wasn't good either because Barca wasn't interested? Or does it mean that Ozil is sh!t because Real didn't want him anymore? Did it mean that Pogba wasn't good because us and Juve were the only serious interest he got? Was Vidal not that good either? Etc, etc, etc. If those guys weren't stacked with technical midfielders and players in general they would love to have Banega on their team as well. Just look at Guardiola's (and other la liga managers in the previous few years) comments anout Banega. Us on the other hand, are stacked with a bunch if hackers and average players in the midfield so someone like Banega would instantly become the most technical player in the squad.
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - Jay Crisp - 01-12-2014
Banega is good but only good ,Jorginho the same...but he has a bigger upside IMO...Nefremo instantly Banega ..long term JORGI for reals....Jorginho > Banega...I would like (maybe its my FIFA head) Jorginho Candreva Doria Perin...anyone agree or disagree
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - WCmilan - 01-12-2014
Disagree, people are way way way overrating Jorginho. He's a promising youngster but honestly nothing too special. He's no Verratti, or for that matter even close.
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - nefremo - 01-12-2014
Jay Crisp.......I don't want to get into a debate into what player is better or better suited for the club for that matter, as it's a matter of opinion.
But I'll ask you one thing.....how many times have you seen Banega play and in how long of a timespan (saw him play 3 times in 1 month? ; 3 times in 2 years? etc etc) What about the same question about Jorginho? OR BETTER YET...Doria??
I ask for the time because all players hit highs and lows. All players hit form and are off-form. All players have injuries and work towards full fitness and then there are times when they are in full peak. If you have watched one player 2,3,4,5, x times in a span of 3 months...that may not be a true representation of him. On the other side if you watched him play 2,3,4,5, x times in the span of 3 years and he's kept that same level and the same qualities....well that may be a better representation of that player.
I have not seen enough of Jorginho to comment but from the little I've seen he is not on Banega's level (and as a matter of fact he is a little bit of a different type of player and has different qualities). But at the same time I'm a little cautious as he may be the flavor of the month or two. Nobody here has watched Jorginho play consistently for a whole season.....let alone a few seasons yet everyone wants us to splash money on him. While on the other hand, Banega has been, and STILL IS one of the most technical and best CMs in La Liga for a number of seasons now. I have followed him for a few years and have watched him play A LOT....and that's why I'm commenting on him.
By the way.....I agree on Perin and Candreva. I actually really like Candreva as a player. I can't say anything about Doria as I've not seen him play and I'm not going to base my judgment on youtube videos or Fifa.
And for the record....I don't mind Jorginho if that's the target that the club wants to go after.....but I will reaffirm my stanse....if faced with a choice, I would take Banega over him without even thinking. It's a no brainer. Those that disagree should watch Ever play more. That's how sure I am of that.
On another note.....what are people's thought on Ranocchia here? transfermarketweb (I know it's a shitty source) says that Inter may sell him to Dortmund for around 12mil Euros. Straight swap with Matri???
I have seen Ranocchia have really good games and some really inconsistent ones where he's done good and bad things.
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - ElMago99 - 01-12-2014
(01-12-2014, 01:56 AM)nefremo Wrote: Just because trasfermarkt says that he's worth 18mil, doesn't mean that he really is worth 18 and they really do want 18 for him. And even if he did cost 18, that's 18mil we'll spent when you keep in mind we spent 12 on Matri.
In any case, the reports are saying a sum closer to 10mil. At this point Jorginho will cost between 5 and 7-8mil or maybe even more. Banega is by far the better player and still 25. I would take Banega over Jorginho any day....and any other team would as well.
Besides, how can you say something like that about a player that you clearly haven't seen play in years, if at all. You are basing your opinion on the fact that Barca and Real are not interested. Does it mean that Verratti wasn't good either because Barca wasn't interested? Or does it mean that Ozil is sh!t because Real didn't want him anymore? Did it mean that Pogba wasn't good because us and Juve were the only serious interest he got? Was Vidal not that good either? Etc, etc, etc. If those guys weren't stacked with technical midfielders and players in general they would love to have Banega on their team as well. Just look at Guardiola's (and other la liga managers in the previous few years) comments anout Banega. Us on the other hand, are stacked with a bunch if hackers and average players in the midfield so someone like Banega would instantly become the most technical player in the squad.
Listen you're right on a few points. In Spain, when a player is doing well, often RM or Barca step in and take them. That's all I'm saying. Obviously they don't go for everyone.
I'm not making much comment on Banega because.. I can't. I don't watch any league besides Serie A. In some ways I have to trust others on players outside Italy unless I've seen them play in UCL which I watch often.
It's firstly important when buying players to establish what is needed. Right off the bat, I don't agree with De Jong playing regista. He's not good enough there. If we play with 3 midfielders, and it seems this asshole Allegri is adamant on that, then I think Montolivo should be in the middle, as he is the most well rounded and comfortable in that position. He played there for Fiorentina and was there best player.
I would say we need a mezza'la who is more on the creative side. Someone young and adaptable to the changing Milan. Then, Cristante, De Jong, Muntari, and Poli can fight for the other midfield position.
Is Banega a that player who can walk in and be a starter? I don't know. From 2010-2012 he must have been injured because he didn't play all that much. Before that he didn't play much with Atletico Madrid. I don't know what years he started to play well.. this year?
And briefly to speak of Perin, I'm a huge fan. The guy makes insane saves. I'd love for him to be our future GK.
(01-12-2014, 02:56 AM)nefremo Wrote: On another note.....what are people's thought on Ranocchia here? transfermarketweb (I know it's a shitty source) says that Inter may sell him to Dortmund for around 12mil Euros. Straight swap with Matri???
Bonucci and Ranocchia played together at Bari and I remember people saying they're the new Nesta-Cannavaro. Well.. that wasn't true. Whether he's good enough for this particular Milan is another story.
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - nefremo - 01-12-2014
Fair enough about De Jong. However, De Jong in front of the back line will not be a regista. He will just simply be a holder. You can play many different kinds of players in front of the back line...it doesn't mean that they have to have a regista qualities as long as you have creativity and balance around that player. So De Jong between Banega and Montolivo will work without any issues. And yes, Banega is a player that will be a sure starter for our team....100%. I don't want to sound arrogant, but that's how sure I am of that. Banega is exactly what you described....a mezz'ala that's more on the creative side.
About why he hasn't played much in the years you mentioned....he failed to settle in Atletico (he was loaned there from Valencia) in the beginning as he just came over to Europe as a young player from Argentina but he had the quality. He started imposing himself in Spain and then had a knee injury which kept him out for a long time. After that he had a broken ankle (where his own car ran his leg over) and that kept him out as well. However with his style and technical ability it didn't slow him down and he's always kept up his level. Banega is an idiot. His Ferrari was on fire, he broke his own leg, showed up to practice drunk. I can't defend that.....but his quality is undeniable.
I like Banega as a player. He may not be an Iniesta but he is really good. He wouldn't be the first one on my list if I could choose who I want to fix this Milan. But if he is available for around 10mil (LESS THEN MATRI) then I would love for him to be here. That's the bottom line.
In any case, I don't really want to carry on with this as Valencia won't give up their best player for free......which means we won't be getting him. Galliani is looking for a free player or someone on loan.
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - ACMILAN1983 - 01-12-2014
I think the current argument, Jorginho or Banega is about personal preference. Banega is in his mid-20s, Jorginho is 21. While one is well into his career, the other is just starting out, so really you're either buying for immediate needs or potential.
In terms of ability, both are highly technical and both capable regista and mezzala. Personally, I'd say Banega's much more of a typical south American player. Is very creative and like many South Americans likes to take a lot of touches on the ball (not to be confused with being slow on the ball), using his individual technical ability to create. Tactically, he's very much a free player, moving into all areas of the midfield, rather than a strict defined role.
Jorginho's game on the other hand imo is much more European. Technically he's very gifted, but he uses this to play simple and precise. He's much more direct than Banega and imo much more likely to try and complete his action on the ball in a couple of touches rather than holding the ball. Systematically, he's very European in that he is very disciplined tactically and I bet to a casual follower he would look much more like an Italian player than Brazilian.
Both offer defensive contributions, both preferring interceptions via reading of the game than tackling. Ultimately, I would say it's a choice based on which qualities you want in your team and whether you want immediate success or a long term project. For me, Jorginho's qualities are more in tune with what I personally want at Milan, whilst Banega's lack of discipline is something I strongly don't want at Milan. That isn't to say I think Banega is bad, as when he's on his day, he's up among the best around.
I think if either comes, for technical quality on the pitch, we're making a sound purchase.
Edit: Forgot to say, nefremo I personally think Banega is a lot like Quintero (previously Pescara), who I think you liked as well?
(01-11-2014, 07:53 PM)nefremo Wrote: Rumors again that Banega has been offered to Milan on dimarzio.com. It says Milan is having doubts because of Banega's behaviors. I don't know why when we've taken chances on guys like Mario and Cassano.
I've explained my stance on Banega. I think he's a brilliant player and the perfect mezzala for this team.
-------deJong---------
Monto---------Banega
----Honda---Kaka----
--------Mario----------
(Insert SES in any of the front 3)
That's a midfield that can compete against anyone in Europe.
Also, it seems like Inter has proposed a Matri-Kuzmanovic swap and Milan has rejected that. Good! I don't want Kuzmanovic...just another average player.
Tbh, I'm glad if we're finally taking player discipline into account. It's something I think we've disregarded far too much in recent years.
Agree on Kuzmanovic.
(01-12-2014, 02:05 AM)WCmilan Wrote: Disagree, people are way way way overrating Jorginho. He's a promising youngster but honestly nothing too special. He's no Verratti, or for that matter even close.
I honestly think Verratti's overrated if I'm honest. People already act as if he's the complete and finished article, which he's not. Not to say I don't rate him, he's a phenomenal talent and is ahead of Jorginho in his career, but I don't think he's that much superior in ability or potential.
(01-12-2014, 06:42 AM)nefremo Wrote: Banega is an idiot. His Ferrari was on fire, he broke his own leg, showed up to practice drunk. I can't defend that.....but his quality is undeniable.
You forgot he was caught having some "personal" time on webcam
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - ACMILAN1983 - 01-12-2014
After writing the post above, I decided to see what articles are around on Jorginho and came across this one from James Horncastle, which I think compliments some of my recent posts/arguments about the player:
http://www.whoscored.com/Articles/btelbhvygegbo3nrklsucw/Show/Player-Focus-Queue-Forming-for-In-Form-Jorginho
I recently described him a very universal midfielder. Especially of note was when I discussed why even during a transition phase it made more sense to get Jorginho than Fernando. Mandorlini, his current coach at Verona, puts it very nicely when he outright says his versatility is a huge strength, being able to play in any role of a midfield three (I think he can just as well play in a fluid midfield 4 personally). In the article Mandorlini compares him to Pogba, which I think is fair, as while Jorginho is probably a little more technical and Pogba more physically impressive, the two share similarities in that they can play successfully anywhere in midfield.
I also said in a post how I think Jorginho would compliment Cristante well recently. This is also quite well supported in the document, as it says not to think of him solely as a regista, which the player himself says he likes to play many roles. Ironically (and I promise I didn't write my post after reading this), he also says he likes to play 2 touches and simple plays, words I've specifically used above. I described Cristante and Jorginho a bit like Pirlo and Seedorf recently, I think this helps understand why.
The last thing I'll add is the fact that like Saponara, Jorginho has got himself a psychological coach (something I didn't know of before). I've maintained that going forward for me it's vital we have players with the right mental approach, so I certainly see it a benefit if he's taken initiative and got himself someone to help him in this regard.
Truth is, I'm not that hopeful we'll get him, as both Fiorentina and Napoli seem ahead in the chase, but he's someone I really do want in Milan. My hope lies in the possibility of Sogliano coming in the summer and maybe Jorginho's personal preference, as he's cited Kaka and Pirlo as his "role models".
Sorry for the double post.
RE: Winter Mercato 2014 - nefremo - 01-12-2014
You hit it on the nail with the South American and European comparison. I agree.
Also, great analysis on Jorginho and it gives a clear idea on what you want the team to look like. I think we won't go wrong with either player as its a matter of preference and they'll both add iquality.
The long term project vs the immediate thing though doesn't concern me. Banega still has many years ahead of him at 25. At the same time, this management isn't too concerned about that too as they'll probably dish off Jorginho before we see the best of him anyway.
Btw, I forgot about Banega's antics on the Internet.
and yes, Banega is a lot like Quintero who I really liked as well. I like those technical midfielders like him, like Alcantara, like Seedorf, etc. By the way....how is Quintero doing this season?